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Author Topic: Public VFAT 2008 Debriefing  (Read 15030 times)
JaBoG32_Laud
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« on: February 14, 2009, 11:56:38 pm »

Hey guys!

A few weeks have been gone since VFAT 2008. I'd like to ask all you guys (teams, solos and spectators) to share your impressions and suggestions about how everything worked ... or didn't...

- Were the forums well organized and kept you you up to date?

- How was streaming working for you?

- Did you feel comfortable within this community?

- How went the teams preparation for the event and the communication with the VFAT-Staff?

- How can we make a step forward (in each point you can imagine) in the next years?

Just to mention a handful of questions.

Looking forward to your answers!
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Frazer
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« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2009, 11:49:07 am »

From the organizors point of view, there are several things to improve for next year.

First of all, it would be good to get rid of the long "waiting" time between each display.
This took long because we had to switch mod, server and camera man, with the result that we had to restart the stream. Restarting the stream brings a delay of at least 15 minutes.

The way it should be is like a real airshow, one team touches down while the next team is running up their engines already.
 
We didn't create a VFAT mod last year because of the huge amount of participants with all their own requirements. This made it impossible to create one big mod.
For 2009 there is the idea to create several mods, one for each day, together with one mission.
If we do it this way, we will only need to switch server/camera man twice each evening when we switch server from Asia to Europe, and from Europe to the US.

This will mean that there is going to be a longer preperation period for the event but the event it self will be much more relaxt for the organizers and participants and the spectators will loose the long waiting time between each show.

It will also mean that participants will loose their preference to fly on a certain day. The mod makers will basicly decide on what day a team will fly simply by looking at the possibilities to implent their skin/mod.

Secondly, the camera work must be dramaticly improved. The teams train the whole year to be able to give a good show and if you keep that in mind, the teams deserve to have the best camera views aswell. Since we will have several teams right after eachother the camera mens job will be heavy, but of great importance. We actually need camera men who take several months to become an expert. Like flying formations in an aerobatic team, being a camera man is a specialiy of its own.

As it looks like now, the dates of VFAT 2009 will be the weekend of December 4-6, and the rehearsal November 27-29.
If these dates are a problem for your team, be early with letting us know and we will reconsider. Obviously, you must have a good reason to change this. We are sorry if it is your wifes birthday, but it will not count as a good reason to change the date of a world event Wink
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VF_#1|Diko
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« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2009, 01:59:49 pm »

The VFAT 2008 was our first live performance at all and we felt quite comfortable. Nice discussion within the chatroom, forum with other teams and other interested people. It was an absolute great event for us. The only markable bad thing was the problem with our mod (Afterburner Cone) at the VFAT Show.

For VFAT 2009 it would be great if it would be possible to have more than just one cameraman per display to have different view angels. I don´t know if something like this is possible. And it would be nice if the teams will know their time slots earlier.

It will also mean that participants will loose their preference to fly on a certain day. The mod makers will basicly decide on what day a team will fly simply by looking at the possibilities to implent their skin/mod.

Sorry, but that´s a real bad idea. Not to choose a certain day/time will make it impossible for some/a lot of teams to fly at VFAT 2009. As you know it is hard to find a way that get 6 or more teammembers together at all. Not everyone can have free days at work for VFAT, they have a real live next to virtual aerobatic. OK, the organisators can say "That´s your personal problem". But does this explain the spirit of VFAT? And what when this is a problem not only(?) for one team, when it´s a problem for 2,3,4... teams -> No VFAT without the teams.  It was 2008 great to see so much different teams from all over the world... why change that? To have more time slots for only a few teams that can fly more than just one time to fill up the three days?
The 2008-Version "One team, one day, one display" was the solution. You had only one chance to show your skill, if you suc*** or missed your time slot, whatever...your bad luck.
The Idea to have one (or more) VFAT-Mod(s) is really good but not that way. The only way can/should be: Ask the team early enough for their certain days and make the mod after that. If the teams knows early enough when to fly it should be possible to find a solution which will work fine for everyone.

Greets,
Diko
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Manu
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« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2009, 08:52:21 pm »

Thanks Laud for the topic.

I would just point out that I totally agree with Frazer's statement. The way he would like to see the 2009 edition looks good to me.
I just want to ask a question to Diko: do you know how to handle several mods together ?

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VF_#1|Diko
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« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2009, 09:26:43 pm »

Of course I know that it is a hard job to stick all this different mods and that it is in some case impossible to put the mods together in one. But maybe you understood me wrong, so I try to explain it:
Make 3(?) different mods for each day, no problem with it. But try first to ask participating team when they would like/are able to fly and then look if it´s possible to stick the mods togehter. If then nothing else is possible, ok, bad luck.

Don´t get me wrong, I´m looking foward to VFAT 2009 and trust into the good organisation team. I know you all do your best to make this event possible for the public and also for the teams.
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Manu
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« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2009, 09:34:01 pm »

Make 3(?) different mods for each day, no problem with it. But try first to ask participating team when they would like/are able to fly and then look if it´s possible to stick the mods togehter. If then nothing else is possible, ok, bad luck.

Don´t get me wrong, I´m looking foward to VFAT 2009 and trust into the good organisation team. I know you all do your best to make this event possible for the public and also for the teams.

No Problem Diko, I don't get you wrong  Smiley I just wanted to make sure you are aware that making a mod is a hell lot of work and it is not always possible to make the mods of different teams able to work together.
That said I''m pretty sure we will be able to handle that.  Wink
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Sawamura
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« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2009, 07:55:47 pm »

Well as for my first vfat and as solo, it looked very well from my point of view.
Even though, i had to wait 15 on the ramp, till i could start taxi to the runway.  Roll Eyes

I can make myself a pretty good picture, of how difficult and and how long it takes, to get everything running smoothly but if possible, the waiting time should be reduced. By using a mod and only one map for all displays, waiting times could be set to zero and kinda more realistic.

The live chat is brilliant. Should be used for every vfat and if possible, a second chat line, for example above the main, where only an admin can write in, for example to post news or what team is flys next.
If someone posts it in the normal chat, it dissappears right away, if many people are chatting.

However, in total, from  my point of view it was very sucsessfull.

The way, of collection possible times, when they can fly shouldnt be changed. To let decise a mod, when a team is flying is a bad idea, i think.
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VBARhino
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« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2009, 10:31:17 pm »

The way, of collection possible times, when they can fly shouldnt be changed. To let decise a mod, when a team is flying is a bad idea, i think.

I think the only way to get the "daily mod" done is if we set the specific flying dates/times at least 1 to 2 months in advance.  Its a very tricky thing to put all the different aircraft together, especially now that several teams are using their own imported 3D models. 
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Wine69
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« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2009, 01:14:27 am »

I agree on the difficulty of creating a mod, but taking 2 or 3 on a day could work, I think.
Would be happy to discuss this again with you guys.

I have quite some experience now ...

For example:

In my T.F.F.2 Video ( created around VFAT 2008 ) there are already 4 teams in just one (online) mission.
The number of F16's ( taken over the F15 model ) could easily have been greater.
There was still room for more Su-27 & Mig-29 skins ( participants )
The A-10 or it's model still could be used. ( participants )
Perhaps the Su-25's or it's model ... ( partcipants )
Perhaps the Su-33 or it's model ... ( participants )

Perhaps you could give the suggestion a second thought, I think you come a long way by doing this.

* Have to say that the organisation could suggest to the participants to deliver the most basic possible mod they can provide.

Like; Skin files, (Model file .lom & .skins), Meinit file.    And no more / not much extra to keep it simple.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 01:48:36 am by Wine69 » Logged

Frazer
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« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2009, 04:30:08 am »

It will also mean that participants will loose their preference to fly on a certain day. The mod makers will basicly decide on what day a team will fly simply by looking at the possibilities to implent their skin/mod.

Sorry, but that´s a real bad idea. Not to choose a certain day/time will make it impossible for some/a lot of teams to fly at VFAT 2009. As you know it is hard to find a way that get 6 or more teammembers together at all. Not everyone can have free days at work for VFAT, they have a real live next to virtual aerobatic.
Ok, I should have been more specified about this.

Ofcourse we will do our best to make it possible for everyone to fly on VFAT but, with VFAT growing bigger and bigger (and also better for the spectator) we simply can not provide the full luxury of choosing a day and time as in previous years.

Saying that your wifes birthday is not a good reason to be unable to fly is a bit rude but I hope you get the point here. Everyone is basicly training one year long to fly a good show at VFAT and so, taking a weekend off from work for VFAT would be not more than logical to me (also to watch others). If that is really not possible, we will do our best to find a solution.

About the VFAT mods, most of the teams only have their own skin, which shouldn't give many issues to put together. Only a few aircraft models will not go together and so only a couple teams will loose some of their preferences to fly on a certain day but then, they still can choose from 2 other days (with VFAT duration of 3 days).


OK, the organisators can say "That´s your personal problem". But does this explain the spirit of VFAT? And what when this is a problem not only(?) for one team, when it´s a problem for 2,3,4... teams -> No VFAT without the teams.  It was 2008 great to see so much different teams from all over the world... why change that? To have more time slots for only a few teams that can fly more than just one time to fill up the three days?
You are running ahead of things here.
I don't know where you got this information or idea, but I have never said this and VFAT 2009 is certainly not going to be the way as you subscribe here.


The 2008-Version "One team, one day, one display" was the solution. You had only one chance to show your skill, if you suc*** or missed your time slot, whatever...your bad luck.
The Idea to have one (or more) VFAT-Mod(s) is really good but not that way. The only way can/should be: Ask the team early enough for their certain days and make the mod after that. If the teams knows early enough when to fly it should be possible to find a solution which will work fine for everyone.

Greets,
Diko
As I said before, VFAT organization will start much earlier and that means that teams will also have to registrate earlier. With that also comes the question "what day you really can not fly".

What we try to get with the "one day, one mission, one mod" is a win-win situation.
- No long waiting times between shows for the spectators and pilots.
- More teams will be able to fly at VFAT without the long down time. 
- A better organization with half as many "areas of possible errors" during the event (also cousing delays).

Oh and about a team only flying one time, is not really the case.
Every team gets the chance to fly twice. The Rehearsal is recorded and shown to public aswell no?  Wink
« Last Edit: February 21, 2009, 04:33:50 am by Frazer » Logged

Frazer
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« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2009, 04:38:29 am »

I agree on the difficulty of creating a mod, but taking 2 or 3 on a day could work, I think.
Would be happy to discuss this again with you guys.

I have quite some experience now ...

For example:

In my T.F.F.2 Video ( created around VFAT 2008 ) there are already 4 teams in just one (online) mission.
The number of F16's ( taken over the F15 model ) could easily have been greater.
There was still room for more Su-27 & Mig-29 skins ( participants )
The A-10 or it's model still could be used. ( participants )
Perhaps the Su-25's or it's model ... ( partcipants )
Perhaps the Su-33 or it's model ... ( participants )

Perhaps you could give the suggestion a second thought, I think you come a long way by doing this.

* Have to say that the organisation could suggest to the participants to deliver the most basic possible mod they can provide.

Like; Skin files, (Model file .lom & .skins), Meinit file.    And no more / not much extra to keep it simple.

Greetz,"Wine".



Great!  Cheesy

All help with the mods will be very welcome.

When the time is there, we will discuss the mod work in more detail  Smiley
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Wine69
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« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2009, 01:33:12 am »

O.K. Frazer, let me know when you think you need / could use my help, looking forward  Wink

I adjusted my profile, so that shows a little more about my whereabouts and so on ...
« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 01:35:15 am by Wine69 » Logged

Lawndart
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« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2009, 09:53:35 am »

Don't take this the wrong way, but I actually welcome short breaks in between displays @ VFAT. Go grab a bite to eat, take care of other things that pop up throughout the day and knowing what time to be back for the next show and so on. It also solves most problems we had in years before when displays were packed so tight together that if one ran late, everything throughout the rest of the day would run late too. Many of our spectators cannot watch all displays in one day, so for them it's nice to know exactly what time/hour each (of their favorite) teams will begin flying. I'm not opposing a quicker pace at VFAT per se, and getting the next demo airborne as soon as possible, but I personally prefer that everyone adheres to a set time table as priority #1, rather than making sure there's never a boring moment - that's priority #2, after making sure "we're all on time, and 100% ready". (Military style...  Wink). My two cents...

That solves most of the waiting issues in my book. What gets annoying is when people don't come prepared for their own show, or if they find out they have issues with something (joystick, connection, graphics etc.) 5 minutes before they are to fly. C'mon people... You should test everything in your system/connection three-four times the day before and the day of your display, then the likelihood of something going wrong or not working is very small (barring a thunderstorm or other unforeseen events). Cheesy

Praparations are most important. Can't tell you how much time we spent the days before preparing for a good show. We didn't fly much, but spent around 20+ hours dealing with computer-, technical-, streaming-, and coordination issues leading up to our show at VFAT '08. We probably flew 2 hours within that same timeframe in contrast to ten times as much time spent making sure "the show" would work flawlessly. This part is as important as the flying, just like Frazer mentioned about the cameramen's job!
« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 10:06:22 am by Lawndart » Logged

Frazer
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« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2009, 09:00:43 pm »

@ LD,
There will be enough time set between shows to ensure we can stick to the time schedule.
Looking at VFAT 2008 though, I think 20+ minutes of "black screen" between shows is a bit too much time to grab a beer. Wink
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JaBoG32_Laud
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« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2009, 09:24:29 pm »

We could maybe work with "time-blocks"?!

A morning show, an afternoon show and an evening show for example. Could be set like a block consists of 4 hours of show, then a 1-2 hours break, followed by the next block. within the blocks may be 1-2 15-30 minutes gaps to buffer some delay or a server/mod switch.

It would mean we would need mods bringing together about 3-4 mods/skins. That way we could also have a team waiting on apron while another is just landing. Just like in the very beginning! Great for the spectators I think and for pilots immersion too!

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