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Author Topic: VFAT ACE-Standards  (Read 10029 times)
Frazer
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« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2009, 12:42:42 pm »

Just to make everything clear see image:
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Sawamura
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« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2009, 06:51:08 pm »

nice outline map.  Smiley

Mh, since this year is gonna be even more real airshow-like, is breaking the soundbarrier allowed?
I did it last year, though.  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 01:48:23 am by Frazer » Logged

VH-Rock
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« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2009, 09:27:03 pm »

I'd love to try that in a P-51 Tongue


at Wings over Houston, 2 F-15's broke the sound barrier this past weekend but at an altitude of 30000 feet, maybe set a hard deck for breaking the sound barrier?
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Ammafrion
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« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2009, 10:43:56 pm »

Всем привет!
Хочу высказать пару мыслей насчет изменения правил.
Во-первых, если организаторы решили запретить пилотаж над «зрителями» в соответствии с реальными ограничениями, было бы так же не плохо разместить «зрителей» на аэродроме в соответствии с реальными правилами.  
А  реально на авиа-шоу зрителей никогда не размещают у самой границы ВПП, и также никогда не допускают чтобы зрители разгуливали по всей территории аэродрома.
На рисунке для примера показана зона для посетителей авиасалона МАКС-2009 в Жуковском. В соответствии с этим было бы разумно скорректировать «зрительскую зону» над  Раздольным как это показано на рисунке.

Во-вторых, в реальности ограничения по высоте пилотирования, элементам пилотажа и т.д. индивидуальны для каждого летчика и зависят от его мастерства и типа самолета.
Например на МАКС-2009 французский Rafale выполнял виражи и бочки буквально над головами зрителей.

В-третьих, не совсем корректно по отношению к участникам вносить изменения в правила уже после окончания приема треков за 4 недели до самого фестиваля.

В связи со всем вышесказанным, прошу разрешить мне выполнять пилотаж на VFAT2009 так как я делаю это в предоставленных треках. Поскольку на пилотаже я не отклоняюсь от ВПП более чем на 200м в сторону зрителей и весь мой «пилотаж над зрителями» - это пара проходов с выполнением бочки.

Считаю, что это будет справедливо, спасибо за внимание.
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Если кто-то сможет перевести мое сообщение на английский точнее чем я, буду очень признателен.
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Hi all!
I wish to express some ideas about changing rules.

First, if organizers have decided to forbid aerobatics over "spectators" according to real restrictions, they also should place "spectators" in airdrome according to real rules.  
On a real air show spectators never placed near the runway border, and also never suppose that spectators walked around all territory of airdrome.
On the picture for example you can find zone for visitors of air show MAKS-2009 in Zhukovsky. So it would be reasonable to correct «a spectator zone» over Razdolnoe as it is shown on the picture.

Secondly, in a reality height, pilotage elements and other restrictions are individual for each pilot and depends of his skills and plane type.
For example on MAKS-2009 French Rafale performed rolls over heads of spectators.

Thirdly, it is not absolutely correct in relation to participants to change the rules after they send you their tracks, 4 weeks before the festival.

Therefore, I ask to allow me to perform my aerobatics on VFAT2009 as I did it in tracks. Because I don't deviate from runway more than 200m towards spectators and all mine «aerobatic maneuvers are flown directly above the virtual public» is a couple of passes with rolls.
I think it will be fairly, thanks for attention.




« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 10:48:31 pm by Ammafrion » Logged
Frazer
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« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2009, 12:01:09 am »

Hi all!
I wish to express some ideas about changing rules.

First, if organizers have decided to forbid aerobatics over "spectators" according to real restrictions, they also should place "spectators" in airdrome according to real rules.  
On a real air show spectators never placed near the runway border, and also never suppose that spectators walked around all territory of airdrome.
On the picture for example you can find zone for visitors of air show MAKS-2009 in Zhukovsky. So it would be reasonable to correct «a spectator zone» over Razdolnoe as it is shown on the picture.
Secondly, in a reality height, pilotage elements and other restrictions are individual for each pilot and depends of his skills and plane type.
For example on MAKS-2009 French Rafale performed rolls over heads of spectators.
You are welcome to express your ideas about changing the rules but let's not make a big deal out of this. We can discuss real rules until eternity and it can only bring confusion to other participants. The only thing we want is that pilots are aware that we have a virtual public.

Thirdly, it is not absolutely correct in relation to participants to change the rules after they send you their tracks, 4 weeks before the festival.
It may look like to you that the rules have changed but actually they have not. If you read rule 4 and 7 carefully:

4. For a non-aerobatic performance to be approved, a clear connection to a performance you could see at an air show must be shown.
The usage of weapons is not something you will see at an airshow.

7. Requirements and standards for each performer:
 c Airplanes must remain within the allotted airspace:
    * VFAT Aerobatic Box: A rectangular (box) shape of 6,000ft (~2km) in front of the tower, 13,000ft (~4km) left and right, and a ceiling up to 15,000ft (4,5km);

It is called aerobatic box with a reason, aerobatic maneuvers should be flown in this box.

So what we basicly did is adding extra lines to make the ACE-Standards more clear to participants as we found pilots flying aerobatic maneuvers, very low, in the what you could call the virtual public, or just camera man position.

Because we do not want to reject some of the participants for not fully understanding the ACE-Standards we gave, to be fair all, the participants one extra week for adjusting their show. And after seeing the tracks in question, we saw that this is not an impossible task.

Therefore, I ask to allow me to perform my aerobatics on VFAT2009 as I did it in tracks. Because I don't deviate from runway more than 200m towards spectators and all mine «aerobatic maneuvers are flown directly above the virtual public» is a couple of passes with rolls.
I think it will be fairly, thanks for attention.
In your case it is very easy to change your flight path for those couple of passes.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 12:02:45 am by Frazer » Logged

Beaker
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« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2009, 12:54:52 am »

I think the clarification got lost somewhere on the past page: nowhere does it say you cannot fly over the crowd in order to complete your show... just do the aerobatic portion of the flight in front of the crowd and in a way that would be acceptable at a real airshow.  Smiley Common sense prevails!
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 01:07:56 am by Beaker » Logged

Frazer
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« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2009, 01:48:33 am »

nice outline map.  Smiley

Mh, since this year is gonna be even more real airshow-like, is breaking the soundbarrier allowed?
I did it last year, though.  Roll Eyes

Seen that we barely have the excitement of the roaring and thrilling jet sounds like in reality, we will not restrict this (as long not every flyby is supersonic ofcourse Wink)
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Lawndart
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« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2009, 11:04:59 am »

I think the new rules are a good addition to make the virtual airshow more realistic, although, adding new rules 4 weeks before the show starts is alittle late IMHO. I hope there will be possible to bend these rules for spessial maneuvers, just like real, the Thunderbirds, Red Arrows etc gets spessial allowence for some maneuvers to fly over the public

For those who don't remember, these rules were in place for last year's VFAT and only minor changes have been made. And just to clarify, "no aerobatic maneuvers will be flown over the crowd"; That doesn't mean the flight paths of the performers cannot pass overhead to enter or exit the aerobatic box, only that loops, spins, rolls etc. shouldn't be flown on top of the crowd or "inside the line" (of the box).

@Frazer, your map is slightly incorrect btw... The aerobatic box is fine, but the 5nm (~10km) radius around show center is supposed to be a circle. The box is what really matters though, because that's the performance area!
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 11:07:57 am by Lawndart » Logged

RED1|Crow
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« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2009, 12:21:07 pm »

After reading the rules more carefully now, I see that no new rules is being added but rather highlighted, so all is good I think Wink

Oh and nice signature btw  Cool
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Lawndart
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« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2009, 07:01:14 pm »

Quote
6 Aerobatic maneuvers directly above the virtual public are not allowed.

Basically, this rule is just a clarification of the aerobatic box. As the word "aerobatic box" implies, all aerobatic flight should take place within this 4nm long (2nm L/R of center) x 1nm wide x 2.5 mile high rectangular block of airspace in front of the spectators just as it would at any real air show. You look in front, not above. However, as already mentioned the performers enter and exit this block of airspace from behind sometimes and that's ok, but they don't perform maneuvers outside of this "box".
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